Thoughts on interactions between certain moves.
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Thoughts on interactions between certain moves.
So, I was thinking as I watched a certain round. Said round was Reflect / Foci Mage Bolt.
Since the reflect turns the Mage Bolt around and doesn't imply changing said bolt, thus leaving it with the Foci tag in place, shouldn't the score reflect that foci? Instead of it being a one point swing, which makes sense if the bolt isn't already being made more powerful by caster B, shouldn't it retain its increased power and result in the Foci being applied on the resulting hit?
I think it'd make more sense if the round scored 1.5, thus doing the Foci justice. It'd also make it a bit more risky to use the Foci which might add another layer to think strategy. Anyways!
Since the reflect turns the Mage Bolt around and doesn't imply changing said bolt, thus leaving it with the Foci tag in place, shouldn't the score reflect that foci? Instead of it being a one point swing, which makes sense if the bolt isn't already being made more powerful by caster B, shouldn't it retain its increased power and result in the Foci being applied on the resulting hit?
I think it'd make more sense if the round scored 1.5, thus doing the Foci justice. It'd also make it a bit more risky to use the Foci which might add another layer to think strategy. Anyways!
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Foci / Mods / Fancies are mostly OOC game mechanic names for specialized moves in the fights.
You'd also have to consider the change of the matrix due to this ( since it completely buffs reflect ), along with the meta of the game. It could easily be explained that the energy used in the foci dissipated before the bounce back, etc.
You'd also have to consider the change of the matrix due to this ( since it completely buffs reflect ), along with the meta of the game. It could easily be explained that the energy used in the foci dissipated before the bounce back, etc.
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According to the Round Checker, no matter if it was MB or FMB the result against RF is still 1 in favor of the RF. The only time it would make a difference is if RF was focused and then it would be MB - 0 FRF - 1.5. The focus is supposed to be a boost to a caster's ability. Just because they use it doesn't mean their opponent can maintain that same level of expertise and power when it's sent back.
As Apple said, doing that might cause a need to revamp the matrix. To me, what's being suggested seems a lot like making a Slash worth 1.5 if it gets through a fancy parry because it should be harder to get through than a regular one.
As Apple said, doing that might cause a need to revamp the matrix. To me, what's being suggested seems a lot like making a Slash worth 1.5 if it gets through a fancy parry because it should be harder to get through than a regular one.
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Okay so I haven't had any coffee yet so I apologize if this ends up all over the place.
On the surface it sounds like it'd make sense right? Except that foci are meant to augment the caster, not the opponent. Just like a slash doesn't get 1.5 for busting a FCP versus a CP (Maggie's example) and a FeJK doesn't only get an Adv against a Dodge versus a full point for an FDO. You get the solid 1 point for both of those because you did a solid 1 point worth of energy expenditure.
Then it would become a matter of moving focus points around between people while trying to keep scores straight (something already difficult for callers unfamiliar with the tool and calling the sport in general), adding additional time to the match that doesn't actually come from additional rounds. Feels like that defeats the purpose to me.
And then you have the matter of what does a FMB/FRF do? By this logic, the FRF should score 2 full points (1 baseline, .5 for the RF's focus, and .5 for the reflected MB's focus), which in my opinion is way too much for a single round and grossly unbalances the matrix and RF's ability (which some have argued is already too strong). Hypothetically speaking, that could end a match in as few as 3 rounds (FRF/FMB, 1pt scoring move, FRF/FMB).
Which brings me to this next point, Magic is the only sport right now in which it's possible to close a regulation match out in 4 rounds. I don't think you can do much better than that. The times that matches end in 4 (and it happens enough for me to confidently say that with proper application of foci that a match can fly by) people are left going "What the eff just happened..." because it goes that quickly.
It's already been said, but something like that would require a complete overhaul of the matrix to offset said unbalance. Not just a single scoring rule tweak or even a single move's interactions, but the entirety of the matrix.
Just a few things that come to mind. Otherwise, great discussion. Keep it going!
On the surface it sounds like it'd make sense right? Except that foci are meant to augment the caster, not the opponent. Just like a slash doesn't get 1.5 for busting a FCP versus a CP (Maggie's example) and a FeJK doesn't only get an Adv against a Dodge versus a full point for an FDO. You get the solid 1 point for both of those because you did a solid 1 point worth of energy expenditure.
Then it would become a matter of moving focus points around between people while trying to keep scores straight (something already difficult for callers unfamiliar with the tool and calling the sport in general), adding additional time to the match that doesn't actually come from additional rounds. Feels like that defeats the purpose to me.
And then you have the matter of what does a FMB/FRF do? By this logic, the FRF should score 2 full points (1 baseline, .5 for the RF's focus, and .5 for the reflected MB's focus), which in my opinion is way too much for a single round and grossly unbalances the matrix and RF's ability (which some have argued is already too strong). Hypothetically speaking, that could end a match in as few as 3 rounds (FRF/FMB, 1pt scoring move, FRF/FMB).
Which brings me to this next point, Magic is the only sport right now in which it's possible to close a regulation match out in 4 rounds. I don't think you can do much better than that. The times that matches end in 4 (and it happens enough for me to confidently say that with proper application of foci that a match can fly by) people are left going "What the eff just happened..." because it goes that quickly.
It's already been said, but something like that would require a complete overhaul of the matrix to offset said unbalance. Not just a single scoring rule tweak or even a single move's interactions, but the entirety of the matrix.
Just a few things that come to mind. Otherwise, great discussion. Keep it going!
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I don't have any problem with the idea of a mod being reflected back. And given that it only affects one move (Reflect), and only when the opponent uses a Foci, its impact on the matrix is relatively minor (though certainly worth some consideration before being allowed).
The calling tool available in the RoH chatroom can't be made to account for this change, which would make it a little harder on the callers. The Round Checker on DZ would be easy enough to fix with a couple of lines of code.
That said...if you're looking for a way to rationalize *why* the Foci doesn't reflect...
You might think of the Foci as a meta-magic. It's effect not being to magnify the effect of the spell, but rather to enhance the targeting of the spell.
You might think of it as adding a scope to a rifle. It doesn't change the caliber of the bullet being fired, but it does improve your ability to place the round on your target. Thus having a potentially greater effect (headshot vs. random body shot).
The Foci represents the caster's ability to more tightly target their opponent.
If we presume you can somehow block a rifle round (or blaster shot [e.g. with a light saber]), the fact that you can "return" the shot doesn't mean you're returning it with the same accuracy it was fired. (That's what a Focused Reflect would be. The more accurate return of that rifle/blaster shot.)
FWIW
The calling tool available in the RoH chatroom can't be made to account for this change, which would make it a little harder on the callers. The Round Checker on DZ would be easy enough to fix with a couple of lines of code.
That said...if you're looking for a way to rationalize *why* the Foci doesn't reflect...
You might think of the Foci as a meta-magic. It's effect not being to magnify the effect of the spell, but rather to enhance the targeting of the spell.
You might think of it as adding a scope to a rifle. It doesn't change the caliber of the bullet being fired, but it does improve your ability to place the round on your target. Thus having a potentially greater effect (headshot vs. random body shot).
The Foci represents the caster's ability to more tightly target their opponent.
If we presume you can somehow block a rifle round (or blaster shot [e.g. with a light saber]), the fact that you can "return" the shot doesn't mean you're returning it with the same accuracy it was fired. (That's what a Focused Reflect would be. The more accurate return of that rifle/blaster shot.)
FWIW
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I'm only commenting to point out that Reflect / Reflect is... well, it doesn't make sense. How in the world does that get anyone points?
That said, maybe the whole matrix does need an overhaul. Then again, I don't duel in Magic anymore. I don't plan to duel in it again. So this'll probably be the last thing I add to the discussion.
That said, maybe the whole matrix does need an overhaul. Then again, I don't duel in Magic anymore. I don't plan to duel in it again. So this'll probably be the last thing I add to the discussion.
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If I remember correctly, at one point in time RF/RF scored for both duelists and skipped a round. It was a nice RP effect ( The old mirror in a mirror and infinite reflections thing), but might have caused issues with scoring and round tracking.Canaan wrote:I'm only commenting to point out that Reflect / Reflect is... well, it doesn't make sense. How in the world does that get anyone points?
That said, maybe the whole matrix does need an overhaul. Then again, I don't duel in Magic anymore. I don't plan to duel in it again. So this'll probably be the last thing I add to the discussion.
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It didn't cause a problem with scoring. But...since the room tool ignored the effect, it meant that callers would have to manually account for it. And it was really sort of an unnecessary complication.Mairead Harker wrote:If I remember correctly, at one point in time RF/RF scored for both duelists and skipped a round. It was a nice RP effect ( The old mirror in a mirror and infinite reflections thing), but might have caused issues with scoring and round tracking.
So...since the rule said one thing...and the tool ignored that rule,...and we can't fix the tool...it made sense to get rid of the rule.
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Because you're reflecting a reflective spell that's reflecting another spell. It can be anything the players want it to be. To limit the move selection to a simple example post on the magic FAQ is wrong. This is free form roleplaying, thus any move used can be done in any chosen way. The matrix needs no overhaul as logic should not trump the matrix itself. The only thing limiting a players perception of a move is themselves, not the whole matrix in of itself.Canaan wrote:I'm only commenting to point out that Reflect / Reflect is... well, it doesn't make sense. How in the world does that get anyone points?
That said, maybe the whole matrix does need an overhaul. Then again, I don't duel in Magic anymore. I don't plan to duel in it again. So this'll probably be the last thing I add to the discussion.
Balance trumps Logic when it comes to the matrix. The interactions of spells are not based entirely on logic, they're based on keeping the matrix balanced. The moves within the matrix themselves can be taken as OOC face value. When you cast foul fog is it always a foul smelling fog? It could be a smoke bomb, it could be a flash of light. The same with meteor shower. Is it always dropping rocks from the sky? Could it not be someone teleporting and slashing down with a blade, or someone kicking sand at their opponent?
Reflect v Reflect does make sense when the players play it out how they wish it to be.
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This is why I love dueling and RPing DoM duels: because you can interpret the spells themselves in RP in any number of ways. I've seen people duel with tattoo magic, I've seen people duel with holograms, I've seen people use magical weapons, I've seen people toss pink sparks across the ring, etc. etc. etc. Each of the four characters I've used (however briefly) to duel in DoM have had very different interpretations of the core spells that make up the matrix, and I don't think I can say the same for my Fists or Swords experience.When you cast foul fog is it always a foul smelling fog? It could be a smoke bomb, it could be a flash of light. The same with meteor shower. Is it always dropping rocks from the sky? Could it not be someone teleporting and slashing down with a blade, or someone kicking sand at their opponent?
I'm willing to work with the other person I'm dueling, and work through whatever cognitive dissonance might be bugging the back of my brain about matrix interactions, to have interesting duels.
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