Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Kalamere » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:06 pm

Could be one last, or could be moved to some other event type. The annual masquerade brawl also continues to award the PC. (or both)
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by PrlUnicorn » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:15 pm

Jake wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:13 pm
If we adopted something like the Ring of Klytus model, where it's awarded based on performance through the cycle (vice performance in a tourney), then I think it's entirely appropriate to come up with a new name for the award. It doesn't eliminate the history of the Panther's Claw. The winners/holders of the Panther's Claw earned it by virtue of a tourney performance.

Different mechanic for awarding the prize, different name to distinguish it. Plus it's an opportunity to recognize someone else (should it be based on a character) that has contributed to the community.
Kalamere wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:18 am
I think in the end what we're proposing is to entirely ditch what we know as the PC today and replace it with something new. My liking of history aside, I think that makes sense in the lossless environment we're in today.
This is a bit different than my understanding of the original post.
Replacing it with something new and leaving Panther's Claw as a historical artifact on display works for me.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Gloria Blaze » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:36 pm

I agree with the comment above by Collie.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Tasslehofl Momus » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:53 am

I know this might have been thought about, but why not both?

Leave the PC as is, which not only helps the lower ranks, but gives them their own tourney. This also leaves the history in place.

Then create a new one, and I like Harris' idea about participation, for that?
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Kalamere » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:10 pm

Tasslehofl Momus wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:53 am
I know this might have been thought about, but why not both?
Mostly there just isn't interest. Here are the attendance counts from the last 4:

Jan 2019 - 3
May 2019 - 5
Jul 2019 - 1
Oct 2019 - 2

Add to that the reasoning I already posted that the Emerald climb should be measured in in a fraction of the time it was under WoL ranking rules and, all in all, it just doesn't strike me as worth the effort.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Tasslehofl Momus » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:16 pm

Ahh.. see? Those numbers are something this old man didnt know. What I get from being gone 😁

With those numbers, I can see the idea of both is a moot point, because who would want to put together a tournament for only one or two to show?

In this case, retirement of the PC seems a more appropriate route and building something new.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Delahada » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:44 am

Attendance count could be for reasons besides interest, such as when they are held.

Speaking solely for myself here, but I haven't attended the last several tournaments mostly due to inability to fit it into my schedule. Especially when they have been held on Sundays.

I'm also going to be the one to say that when tournaments have cutesie little themes tied to them (win a pet baby polar bear! or whatever), I lose a lot of interest in attending them for that purpose as well. I get that I'm in the minority here, but from an IC stand point I cannot justify my character wanting to have anything to do with any of the fun food or consolation prizes. When I first started playing him as a duelist, the PC was the prize, and that was it. Yes, I realize this is me shaking my cane and telling "you kids" to get off my lawn when "back in my day..." Yah yah.

I also honestly don't like it when tournaments are combined. Throwing the PC and DQ together into one big tournament that everybody participates in and whatever you rank at depends on what you win! I just... don't like that. Feels like it defeats the purpose of them supposing to be higher rank or lower rank tournaments, and it can feel unbalanced and intimidating to throw a Glass at an Emerald, even if you throw in "everybody fights at X rank!" Loses its luster, for me.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Max Lager » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Kal gave a good, short and sweet run down of the numbers for the last several PC tournaments, I’m dropping a little more information and links for people to easily reference if they want to. Tried for cliff notes versions and laced with my personal assessments.

Summer 2018 Panther's Claw
July 18, 2018 Wednesday Night, 3 duelers, only the Panther’s Claw as the prize.

Fall 2018 Panther's Claw
November combined tournament offering Panther’s Claw as a prize. Ran from Nov 7 – 15, 2018. Numerous prizes offered where the majority fall under the “rp prize” bracket, but again: combo tournament with MoonBeryl and Panther’s Claws being the top prize. It was a busy and active tournament. Incidentally, two low ranked players ranked up to Emerald in this, which pushed the Panther’s claw prize down a few people till a low ranked player was eligible to walk away with the Panther’s claw. Participants could trade in points for a variety of consolation gifts / prizes. All RP.

Winter 2019 Panther's Claw
Sunday Night, January 6th, 2019 Tournament. I think this tournament duelers were given the ability to use extra mods in the tournament, there’s mention of a flask given out that gives endurance. 3 duelers, round robin style, Panther’s Claw as top prize with rp prizes offered as consolation gifts for participants.

Spring 2019 Panther's Claw
Wednesday Night, May 1st 2019, 5 duelers, Megabrawl. This tournament offered Panther’s Claw, an Opal Challenge Grant and rp prizes (consolation gifts for participants). Winner of the grant did use it and did win an opal challenge.

Summer 2019 Panther's Claw
Friday Night, July 19, 2019 1 dueler showed up and was given the Panther’s Claw. RP prizes as consolation gifts for participants were offered.

Fall 2019 Panther's Claw
Wednesday Night, October 30th. The post says that it was to be a Masquerade* Brawl. There’s no further information there, but going to the standings for that week I see that Gloria wins the tournament and holds the Panther’s Claw. Looking through discord I see that it was 2 people in the tournament, and a single match with the winner taking the Panther’s Claw. It was not a done as a brawl (you can't run one with only two people). No additional rp prizes were offered. (( *Edited to correct me saying originally it was a megabrawl, I cannot read apparently. Big derp derp on my part.))


We’re really seeing a variety of days here, but Wednesdays has always stuck in my mind for when Kheldar would run them before we’ve made the transition to discord. Wednesday is also when they’ve held 3 of the 6 that I listed above. I know that Sundays have been when I've run ARTs, AMTs for DoM, and when I've called Warlord Tournaments and Talon Tournaments for DoS.

The “cute pets” as prizes for DoF have not been offered out since the Fall of 2018. They are a successful draw in DoM, often being the prize people want immediately after the top titles themselves. But obviously, just because something works in one sport for that player base does not mean it would work in all three sports. The Polar bear prize was offered in DoS, when they had their most recent combined tournament, and I thought it was a cute addition there, but did not get picked immediately either --- so its possible for whomever steps in to run DoS next can take that into consideration. I believe it didn't get picked immediately because there were grants and a ring being offered.

For the All Rank’s Tournament in DoM – every fighter is put on equal footing, so there’s not an unbalancing act. All fighters fight with the same amount of mods, and no special spells are allowed. For the All Rank’s Tournament that DoS has held, every fighter was also limited to or given the use of the same number of mods. I do recognize what you’re saying Delahada about it being intimidating as a glass fighting an emerald, even if you are given the same number of mods, but I’m not certain how to adjust game mechanics for different players general knowledge and experience of the sports. Do you have any suggestions? I do not consider game mechanics to be my strong suit. Is it different when its two glass ranked characters fighting, but one is an emerald alt?

If the DQ and PC tournaments were combined (and I’m not saying that they have to be), I would see that being done to help relieve the current sport staff, who are the ones having to prepare, post, host and run these tournaments. Recent history is showing that with the PC tournament not pulling in a lot of people combining a tournament would be beneficial to our DoF sport coordinators. I know that for DoS, they combined the two tournaments into one for these two very reasons.

The take-away I see is that for tournaments when a title is on the line, opals, rings, towers --- people are drawn in. Personally speaking, if I want a top title being offered, I make personal adjustments to my schedule. Even though funny enough, winning a tournament to take home an opal, ring, or key is traditionally longer and harder to do than just challenging outright for it.

I would heavily consider adding opal challenge grants to the tournaments if you do not change anything else. The two tournaments that pulled in the most participants either had an opal as a prize or the chance to challenge for one. I’m interested in the suggestion being made to essentially remake / offer something new from what the PC essentially is right now, but completely understand if the community wants to keep the history and hold on to the PC as it is. If you want it, I think you need to fight for it.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Delahada » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:49 am

Hey, Max! Thank you for taking the time to run through and list all those past tournaments. And yeah, looking back on those I see only one where I could have even feasibly participated given my weekly schedule. I don't know why I didn't join in on that July 2019 PC. Probably I had something going on, but looking back at my calendar tells me nothing. I do know also it's been a slow and gradual thing for me to get back into dueling since we switched over from flashchats to discord. It's taken some getting used to to adapt to the changes in how we RP now.
Max Lager wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:18 pm
I do recognize what you’re saying Delahada about it being intimidating as a glass fighting an emerald, even if you are given the same number of mods, but I’m not certain how to adjust game mechanics for different players general knowledge and experience of the sports. Do you have any suggestions? I do not consider game mechanics to be my strong suit. Is it different when its two glass ranked characters fighting, but one is an emerald alt?
I don't think I really have any kind of suggestions on how to improve this, but yeah. It can be intimidating, and frustrating, when it's two glass ranked characters but I know the other one is an emerald alt. I understand our player base is significantly smaller than it used to be, but I also feel like it's starting to grow, a lot. I've seen a few legitimately new characters and possibly players give the duels a try. I'd like to see them keep at it and encourage more participation!

Hey. If that means cute pets as consolation prizes, so be it. Just not my personal jam, and certainly not my character's. Though for Sal, at this point, it's probably pretty moot. One more win and he'll be an emerald too, lol.

I do have those aforementioned legitimately new people in mind, however, when I think about how much I want to keep the PC as is, for the good of history and tradition. The twin win nights and no-loss are great and all, but i remember well, still, how much of a struggle it can be to even get that one win, to make it two, to crawl out of Glass into Jade. I've done IFL for the past several years, and while I did remarkably well improving my rank and ability there, I have had a hell of a time making it work here in basic DoF. I could probably do another dozen DoF duels before i get that one more win I need to get to Emerald. I mean... it took me 10 years to get to Warlord in DoS. It's nice to not have to worry about losing the ranks I've gained, now, but still.

Ultimately I know the staff will make the right decision and take into consideration what's best for our community's growth and prosperity. You all have done an amazing job so far and I have no complaints. I'm just an old person sitting in my rocking chair here shaking my cane. Don't mind me. ;)
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Michelle Montoya » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:33 pm

TLDR;
  • If we keep the PC, we should add Opal Challenge Grants as an incentive.
  • Tournaments should be announced well in advance, with at least one reminder post, and the rules posted ahead of time.
  • I am not in favour of rolling the PC into the DQ.
  • You could make the PC an annual tournament such as the masquerade brawl instead, offering Challenge Grants to go with it.
  • You could retire the PC entirely and develop a method for rewarding DoF activity to Non-Emeralds, whether that's extra mods, RP rewards, or a challenge grant.

The Full Spiel
I want to point out that there are likely other contributing factors, aside from interest, as to why some of the Panther's Claw tournaments have poor turnout.

July 19th, 2019 - The posting/announcement for this went out on Sunday, July 15th. I understand that things happen, however, announcing a tournament three days prior is not a lot of notice.

Oct 30th, 2019 - This one did have lots of notice, but the Masque Brawl rules were not (and are still not) posted on that link. And while it was posted almost a month in advance, there was little to no reminder of the PC tournament coming up. So without reminders or rules on how the Brawl was going to work, I can see why this one fell through the cracks.

May 1st, 2019 - Announced Mar 21st (tons of notice!), Rules posted Apr 21st (reminder post and tells us what's going to happen, you'll notice that there are no signups until this is done and April 21st is a week and a half prior to the tournament). I also want to note, that J recognized that the original date would conflict with GoT which is why it got moved from Sunday to Wednesday. Understanding other potential conflicts is important. The Opal Challenge Grant is an incredibly awesome draw for a PC Tournament because the climb to Emerald *is* long given the size of our current fighting pool.

Jan 6, 2019 - From the posts here it looks there was some confusion about the date. So there was good notice given but perhaps a lack of clarity?

July 10, 2018 - Pretty bare-bones post here, eight days notice.

So for me, personally? I love the PC. I love the history, I like that it gives a leg up in advancing within a matrix that is heavily influenced by mods, and I think it's especially great when we can offer Opal Challenge Grants as a part of that. However, I also think that successful tournaments live and die on three things: Timely Notice, Clear Communication, and Worthwhile Prizes. The most successful tournaments, in all sport, hit all three of these things because all three of those things contribute to healthy interest and getting people out to fight.

We have a small pool of people, getting 3-5 participants out to a tournament is actually a fair showing at this point considering that we have 45 eligible contestants but at least 19 of those are alts (either they are already Emerald on another character or they have two in the below Emerald category) —that gives you at most 26 unique people not all of whom duel regularly and many (9+) are on that list because of IFL.

I don't like the idea of rolling the PC into the DQ, mostly because I think the power dynamics between Emeralds and Glass are far greater than Warlord and Commoner or Mage and Apprentice. Something about the matrices, something about the skillset required.

So what would we use instead of the PC? If activity in Fists is the issue, then the idea of retiring the PC (or making it an annual masquerade brawl) makes sense. You could then develop something that rewards activity with either extra mods OR a challenge grant.
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by PC » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:13 pm

Could always go by a formula.

We'd like x number of challenges over a span of time. If challenges are down, reward more grants so that players are given some sort of agency to actually go out and do something. If challengers are up, you pull back on the grants but still offer something that's interesting enough for players to come out. Add these to the PC, DQ, or random little events throughout the year to give players something to do. The two cycle tournaments are not enough to keep interest and coasting can become problematic.

I'm sure many in DoF right now may be confused due to the Opal shattered storyline: Why would I challenge for a title when the title itself isn't there? Adding new and exciting things that link to the title itself may be interesting. More play hooks that offer the challenger and title holder a reason to seek these out. There needs to be a willingness to expand upon the works of the past, as repetitive becomes dull.

How does this link to the PC? The PC itself is a link to DoF as a whole and needs to be viewed as another working part of the bigger machine. Offer Opal challenge grants and other such things, change the PC into something new to reflect on these changes and have goal in mind that links all of these together. If the goal is more activity, then the titles, tournaments, and events should reflect this want from the community; and to do this requires engagement and imagination from leadership. Create agency that will have players imaginations sparked so that they are wanting and willing to actually come out and participate in the game.

Either way I'm sure you guys will think of something cool and interesting. :P
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Re: Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

Post by Harris » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am

I'd like to echo the "history" element. The history of the Panther's Claw doesn't go anywhere. The same way the history of the retired rings in DoS didn't go anywhere. And just like those retired rings, at any point the Panther's Claw can be brought back into rotation. The atmosphere of the era is essentially what dictates decisions like these. A better way to think of this would be putting the Panther's Claw on hiatus until it's viable again. Ultimately nothing's stopping DoF from breaking out a Panther's Claw tournament at some random future date if the atmosphere changes and warrants it.

The issue or issues with the Panther's Claw are likely symptomatic of a larger problem, which is ultimately why shelving it until those problems can be solved seems reasonable. Replace it with something basic in the meantime. Now, especially in this era of no losses, rewarding and promoting participation seems like the logical path. Making rank is now a time release function of the game. Even with a 1% win rate a player is guaranteed to make rank. But they have to show up and duel.

I think simplicity is key. Pay off participation. It could be monthly or cyclic. You're a low rank, you duel the most in the month/cycle, it pays off and you get twin wins the entire next month/cycle, halving the time it would take to make rank. Participation folds over into participation, in theory. Call it the Colton Crystal or Brute Of The Month/Cycle and bring back the belt buckle.

Lastly, DoF is too different from DoS to simply merge tournaments to improve turnout because the Diamond Quest's purpose is to award the highest rank. Allowing Glass ranked fighters with or without 6 mods into a tournament where the Diamond is the prize undercuts the entire game.
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