Suggestion

[Sabine]

Lots of good points here.

I loved my time doing IFL with Deathcake. We had a pretty drama-free time and we just focused on fun. I can't remember my original stance on the IFL break, but I know I needed it.

This year I have slacked off from duels entirely and pretty much only did standings for DoS. I was burnt out on everything, my job had me flip-flopping schedules a lot and I was focusing on my health and trying to spend more time working out and food prepping than sitting at my computer.

I was invited by at least 2 teams to do IFL but I have again, more IRL stuff going on. A new position at work, new schedule, and a new baby on the way. I also took time away from RP too, not just duels. I played live 2 times in the last 6 months and only really "came back" this week.

Per usual I don't know what the key is to fixing anything. Team stuff is a lot of fun. I think Gren's idea is a good one.

I agree with Kal that the gossip and articles surrounding duels are also tons of fun. I think the Baroness Beauty stuff Sabine was doing and the "hot" calendars I've done are a lot of fun. We need those bits of fun to add another element to the duels and keep it intriguing.

I don't really have problems with any duelists. There are some I am more friendly with than others, but over-all I enjoy our community. BUT, I do hear of a lot of drama that I think weighs things down.

Ultimately, I think we need to get over ourselves and our perceived hurts. We need volunteers and yet when we get them, there are those who pitch a fit because it's not their friend or because that person was an ass 5 years ago or whatever minuscule reason. We can't ask for volunteers but then be so negative and choosey. If someone volunteers, in whatever capacity, we owe it to them to support them and try to make their job easier. We've had a lot of blips with Sylus' running the show, there are probably times we've annoyed each other (Sy, Kal, and myself) but there were irritations with Rayvinn and G too. None of our volunteers are going to be perfect. I mean, I still hear things about when Apple had a heavier hand in things. This is a volunteer site guys, we just can't be holding on to that stuff and letting it poison our tiny community. And maybe you're thinking "but I don't see this stuff going on." ... but it does. Even in IMs and whispers, this stuff goes on and it is like a game of telephone and I think it just chips away at our desire to have fun. None of this is to say there are not genuine jerks in our circle. There are. I won't get into their negativity. But I see you. The community sees you. Knock it off. This is not your sandbox. Other players are not your toys.

I think a lot of us (myself included) need to buck up and be more supportive of one another. That doesn't mean you have to play with someone you genuinely dislike, but if they are volunteering for a shift, could you at least show up? You don't have to interact with them, but support their shift. Maybe you don't like how Sylus is running things, maybe you want him more present. Have you asked him how things are going IRL for him? Have you asked if you could help? Have you offered to take up his Sunday shift so maybe he could focus on other DoS activities? He's pretty much *always* willing to make accommodations for events like a loss forgiveness for example. Doesn't hurt to ask.

Instead of pointing fingers and being disgruntled, maybe ask "what more can I do?" We always have a lot of people with ideas and opinions, but frankly we don't have the man power.

We need our good hyped callers back. We need the excitement they bring to a room. We need events and themed nights. We need gossip and news articles. We need marketing and branding (IC) surrounding the duels. These all add something.

Are there actual changes needed to the game? Probably so. There was something that happened surrounding my last challenge with Sabine that really just... hurt me and annoyed me. No one technically did anything wrong, but I think it opened my eyes to an area of improvement we could have. So yeah, how can we improve the game?

We had a lot of talk and focus surrounding new players. We hammered that horse to hell and back. Well, where are all these new players? There were lots of suggestions and ideas, but not a lot came of it.

Perhaps we need a community Google Doc linked, titled something like "Event ideas" where people can go in and jot down their name and a basic summary of an event idea and a proposed date and who will run it. This may help us all to coordinate things better instead of having last minute things with no turn out or having 10 things in one weekend. Maybe a similar doc of "I am willing to do XYZ" whether that is playing host/bartender/ or queue keeper, watching for new players and being a helper, etc etc.

You don't have to be a regular volunteer like a caller or coordinator to have a big impact.

We've got to get our sense of community back.

Sorry so long guys. I just want to see some positivity and excitement again.

I hope that this isn't a lot of preaching on my part, but that I can look at myself and find a way to bring something to the table. As soon as I stop wanting to puke every 5 seconds and get some energy back. (TY tiny parasite. I mean baby.)

[Kalamere]

We had a lot of talk and focus surrounding new players. We hammered that horse to hell and back. Well, where are all these new players? There were lots of suggestions and ideas, but not a lot came of it.

Because it was only ever talk and nothing actually got done.

Somebody needs to step up and lead.

Events are great and they become necessary to keep or revitalize interest. But events are mostly for those who are already here.

Growing the player base is a different discussion altogether and is going to take a lot of work and a lot of coordination, and it requires someone to step up and spearhead that. Obviously that person isn't the current site owners. It's also not going to be me. I can share my thoughts about some of the things that need doing, but I am in a place where I'm scaling back my site involvement not increasing it. I recently asked Sylus to replace me on DoS staff.

Maybe it is one of the other sport coords or maybe it is someone not even on staff right now. Or, unfortunate fact of the matter is, maybe it is nobody at all.

Sabine's right in that we've talked about this sort of stuff ad nauseam, and I know this post is just piling onto that, but unless / until somebody steps up, talk is all it is ever going to be.

Sorry, I don't typically like to make a post that is all negative without offering any kind of solution. This is an old problem though and I don't know who it is that can fix it... I just continue to hope that there IS such a person.

[Andrea Anderson]

Others making suggestions instead of waiting for others would be a good start. As I posted earlier in this thread, there can be quality of life changes or even complete re-doing of rules to fit a more casual yet competitive playstyle. This is a very, very old issue - as Kalamere said. It was an issue when I came around when it was only Candy and I being the new players, and we had to fight in a very stagnant pool of duelists; which at times meant just me and her fighting one another constantly. The issue is, back then, we were of the old mindset of making rank the old way and wanting to actually put more responsibilities on the current / old playerbase, as we deemed it wasn't "fair" for older players to challenge for titles, etc, without dueling or being active. This resulted in changes that we see today.

These changes came with discussions, not waiting around to see what someone else will do or "oh well nothing is happening so this is the status quo." My post about DoS changes was partly a joke, but it could also be something that could be used as an example of what a more causal yet competitive DoS could be. If it were to happen, and I don't think it will, but we're saying a big if here - would that change anything? We don't know.

When I was assistant coord to G, we made a lot of changes without asking the community. I thought, personally, that they would be good quality of life changes that would help boost activity, which was my logic. I thought "The players are going to bicker about things one way or another, but what can I do to try and help them?" The road to hell is paved with good intentions and I found that out the hard way,, and I've even apologized to others privately who disliked the change that we should have been more open with it.

But even with all that, the changes didn't do anything. All it did was allow players to actually be less proactive and only get 1 duel to challenge. SoA actually helped regulation even if not many chose to do it at the time.. then again, not many even choose to challenge as it is now, so with or without SOA - nothing changed.

Attempts to find some sort of thing that will work has to be made. But we need a more vocal community to speak up about what these changes should be, or to put out their own proposals and see if - through discussion - something could work. Not everyone is going to agree, sure, and this isn't a democracy.. but we could have SOME democratic process in the form of presenting and discussion. But that's one part of the issue: we have a vocal minority while many stay back and wait to see how things turn out, or they don't care and actually enjoy the game and will continue playing it one way or another- so these discussions don't matter to them.

We can't keep focusing solely on new players. It's the current players who are the ones suffering right now, so making their quality of life sustainable is more important in the short term: then we can worry about drawing in new players who see an ACTIVE community, along with Old players who get the nostalgia bug. The problem is that these quality of life changes are gated by coordinators and staff, but we - the community - need to hold back our own issues and just have a civil discussion without slinging dirt or blame.

As for an event. If TDT were to be hosted after madness, and with a poll perhaps during it to gauge which sport it should be, I actually wouldn't mind hosting it. What would be keeping me busy from Feb->March wouldn't be an issue any longer, so I could most likely commit to it.

[Sabine]

Speaking to your last post Kal.

Perhaps we need an event coordinator position? Someone to run the suggested Google Doc I mentioned of suggested and upcoming events/themes. Someone that can be messaged with ideas or questions regarding events, someone who can reach out to Sylus and ask for approval of freebies and losses. Someone to fill the void with a theme or event when things are slow? Sometimes I think people don't feel comfortable throwing an event out there or don't know how to organize it. Maybe if there was an "Event Face" so to speak, it could help?

Perhaps we also could use a feedback/suggestions captain? Someone that can be messaged with ideas and the like and bring it to the table publically or to the admins to hammer on? Someone to organize the ideas and put them on a docket so to speak and check on them every once in a while to see, how are we doing? Do we want to work on this idea or is it canned?

While I too had to step back from weekly things like calling and also the standings last month, I could definitely do one (or maybe both) of the above.

We have SO many great ideas. I think we need some organization and someone to keep up on things. People also need to feel heard. Would having mini captains for things like events and feedback help with that?

Thoughts? I know this means MORE volunteers, but being this isn't a committed weekly kind of thing... maybe there might be some willing people? Like I said, if anyone else thinks something like this could be helpful, I would be more than willing to try and spearhead it and see how it goes.

[Andrea Anderson]

Why have a google doc when we have a perfectly fine forum here to use? Something that's open and easily accessible to anyone who views the site? It can be as easy as making a sub forum with the rules of "Discussing the future of ROH and the Duels".

Issues sent to the mod of that sub forum would then be posted and locked to be discussed at a later date, or until the current topic at hand is settled / no longer getting replies.

That's another issue about ROH. The forums aren't being utilized. DoM, as an example, actually posts up a yearly event calendar in their OOC folder. Events being openly posted about / discussed here, instead of google, brings more views and discussion to this site, not google.

[Sabine]

As an organizational junkie...

The forums don't lend themselves to being great for keeping a running list/task list.

I'm sure there are ways it COULD be done.

I was just thinking a sticky post with the doc link for easy viewing. If the forums could be utilized in an easy way that is well organized, then I would be fine with that too. A sub forum with a mod sounds like a good way to utilize the forums.

[Andrea Anderson]

Why not have a Events Coordinator for the main sports as well then? DoM has one, DoF and DoS could use one to help coordinate their own events, on top of making sure things don't overlap with others. Add that with a community appointed community leader, who doesn't even need any coordinator status to be honest.

A community leader could easily be the one with the google doc, who is out spoken on the forums and compiles info, all without even needing a special blip in front of their name. They can then present their ideas or try and line them up with the events put up by Event Coordinators of the sports. Kalamere may be a coordinator, but to run IFL? He didn't need any of that coordinator power to do it. Events don't need the main sports heads, not unless you want to offer big prizes, but even then.. are main sports prizes even a draw? Or is it the prestige and fun with a team, or even roleplay prizes, that draw more? One would require outreach to coordinators, the other would simply be limited to the runners imagination and the willingness of the community.

But that brings back to the issue of finding volunteers. We need them, but at the same time we already have many of them running on empty. I've been volunteering for this site for more than 5 years steadily, and at times it feels like there's no real gain to it. We don't get any perks, I've already filled out my caller achievements, and the only time I feel mostly appreciated is when an event I host does well, but that's a very - very small moment compared to much of the rest.

[Sabine]

But that brings back to the issue of finding volunteers. We need them, but at the same time we already have many of them running on empty. I've been volunteering for this site for more than 5 years steadily, and at times it feels like there's no real gain to it. We don't get any perks, I've already filled out my caller achievements, and the only time I feel mostly appreciated is when an event I host does well, but that's a very - very small moment compared to much of the rest.

This.

We need to reward our Volunteers/Callers.

Perhaps with a +1 win if they host at least 1 shift weekly in a month. Or a loss forgiveness if they do something else. (If they are duelists.) Perhaps they don't have to maintain the same activity as others? Just tossing some examples out.

*SOMETHING* Would be nice.

[Andrea Anderson]

But that brings back to the issue of finding volunteers. We need them, but at the same time we already have many of them running on empty. I've been volunteering for this site for more than 5 years steadily, and at times it feels like there's no real gain to it. We don't get any perks, I've already filled out my caller achievements, and the only time I feel mostly appreciated is when an event I host does well, but that's a very - very small moment compared to much of the rest.

This.

We need to reward our Volunteers/Callers.

Perhaps with a +1 win if they host at least 1 shift weekly in a month. Or a loss forgiveness if they do something else. (If they are duelists.) Perhaps they don't have to maintain the same activity as others? Just tossing some examples out.

*SOMETHING* Would be nice.

I'd just like to be appreciated tbh. +1 win perk doesn't do much for me, and there are other callers who are already max rank, but it could maybe draw new callers who don't have rank. I'd be bold and say "Maybe give the person who calls the most a challenge right to any sport they like", but we don't want burn out, nor do we want people ignoring set days to make sure one caller has more over another. There has to be something to give a feeling of appreciation. Maybe a cute ROH icon every year to those who called, or a raffle. Still, this is just one issue among many. RoH as it is now has many holes that need to be clogged to stop the slowly sinking ship. We just have to figure out the connection between each thing. What can make coordinators feel appreciated / Callers / Duel quality of life changes / etc. There's honestly a lot.

NOW IF HARRIS PAYS ME TO CALL IN GIFT CARDS, I'D CALL 5 DAYS A WEEK.

[Nigel Alder]

Nigel, your summation is disingenuous. Nobody, at any point, said that team or league events were bad. IFL skipped a year because it was my opinion that we had overdone it. That I said, in the very first post, IFL would be back in a year's time should have made it clear the league was not considered an overall negative. We discussed a need for perhaps better pacing or coordination. Let's also be clear that this was never an issue of how the site markets itself. IFL's one year hiatus was a decision made by exactly one person. You can hold it against me all you like, but there's no justification for painting the whole site with that brush. It's not constructive. If you like the idea of team events overall and think it should be a thing, then support it. If you don't like how the IFL break went down, then just go ahead and say 'Don't let Kal get involved, cause he stole my lunch money.' I am not the start and end of all site things.

If that's how you see it then I apologize. That's never been my intention or the general message of my discussion. Please note that I mentioned the narrative and site message, meaning, the community as a whole sent the wrong message and didn't market properly. Please also don't forget that during that entire original debate about why IFL 2016 was being cancelled I never came at you with any acrimony, accusations, or blame for why it was but wanted to change the discussion from "We feel relieved IFL 2015 is over because we're burnt out" to "What can I do, personally, to enjoy myself more and feel less burnt out in the future."

I raised my voice in this thread because some of the more vocal people about that burn out are now flipping the script entirely and its bothersome to see. The time invested was viewed as a net negative because people were burnt out due to reasons completely unrelated to events happening back to back to back. Now the fickle message is now, how can we add more events?

If too many events caused burn out in 2015 how is it going to help in 2017?

This is why I say the site has to be careful how it markets itself. Overall. The message sent should be that there is a lot fun and enjoyment to be had and if people aren't enjoying themselves then the first place they need to look is at themselves before they start throwing blame around.

You know, I'm getting tired of the same accusation over and over again whenever I raise my voice and offer an opinion here. "If you're not going to contribute something positive then you're not contributing." That's another really bad way to market this site. Offering a difference of opinion, or an opinion is not a contribution? So we can clarify, Kal, I'm not sitting here seething that you've repeated the same old line and reporting you to the Principal for my lunch money back. It's a constant theme and accusation and I've gotten it at least about a dozen times in the 8 or so-ish years I've been participating on an inconsistent basis. I might not agree with the opinions of those people who decided they weren't enjoying themselves and felt burnt out. Actually some of them are my friends whose opinions I value. Because I have the ability to differentiate between what is a difference in opinion and what is and isn't a personal attack.

My level of contribution is limited by my free time. So offering an opinion, maybe a dissenting one, and participating sporadically is as much as I can do.

It's going to be a really rough road ahead attracting participation if the only way you can be perceived at contributing is putting in a time investment that some people simply do not have.

Maybe its time to view disagreements as just that. No one is ever going to agree with anyone 100% of the time. Does it mean I'm unappreciative of the time people have sunk into making sure people enjoy themselves here? Absolutely not, I never said that, and I never have said that no matter how much I disagree with an opinion.

Please don't presume to put a message that does not exist into my posts when I make them. I have absolutely no issue communicating directly when its warranted.

[Hope]

Due to the success of IFL 2017, I would like to make a suggestion. I know that TDL will probably never come back, but G came up with something similar back in 2011. It was the Team Dueling Tournament. 8 teams of 5 players compete in a three week, winner take all tournament. It’s quick, fun, will bridge the gap between the end of IFL and the start of Madness. Considering we’ve been getting at least 15-20 people in the room during IFL duels, maybe something like this would help take advantage of the increased participation we’ve been seeing.

Here is the thread regarding TDT:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=24805

I think this thread has drifted off-topic a bit. There are some ideas that have been brought up that deserve their own threads to stimulate some proper discussion but I don't think this is the proper place for them. I have a few questions that might help us progress on Gren's suggestion.

Will Madness be returning this year? This is pretty important when we're trying to look at events over a year.

Is there vested interest in a team DoS event? Gren got some feedback but there are more people around who haven't really weighed in on it. Maybe a poll could help shed more light.

If there is sufficient interest, is there any reason not to have it in Regulation to help bolster numbers?

We need to make things work together. I had an idea for a DoS event that I had been brewing last year but decided to sit on it for a while for a few reasons. I'm willing to try and flesh it out more and bounce some ideas around(I've been interested in dabbling with some web design, like my Orbiter project the duels have given me great opportunities to try out coding) and depending on feedback, I would offer to run it. That's a discussion to come a little later of course but I do think there are ideas that we touched on here that deserve their own threads: caller incentive, event scheduling across all sports and whatever else was suggested. We can respect one another's opinions without being divisive. I think a good start is to start looking forward instead of backward.

[DUEL Sylus]

Bumping this thread as things have gone extremely silent.

Gren presented a great idea. It presents something new but still familiar to all of us and can easily help shake off any stagnant ruts currently going through the player base. What's still lacking is leadership. Who wants to step up and LEAD, take the initiative and flesh out a viable, working, outline to run off of? Who has the TIME and COMMITMENT to do it?

One of the hardest things for me to learn when finishing culinary school was the discussion with the chefs about "Don't point out a problem without having at least 3 viable solutions to the issue." This isn't saying don't point out issues or problems, it's saying have a game-plan to correct them. Don't just dump the problem on someone else and wash your hands of it.

Gren's idea got me thinking back to my Factions proposal in a new light and that might be a way to integrate both.

[Gren Blockman]

I didn't present an outline for my suggestion because I didn't feel I had to, considering it was all laid out in the 2011 incarnation.

The Team Captains are responsible for scheduling. The callers who already are staffed during swords or fight nights will do the calling. I'm sure the callers will be happy to have duels to call. The Supervisor's role is resolving disputes and posting results and advancements. And if the posting is too much responsibility, the Supervisor can always appoint someone to do it.

I'm not against the Factions idea, but my original idea was merely something quick, fun, and requiring minimal responsibility. Something to keep the attendance levels we saw during IFL going. Eden's snowball fight on Saturday had between 11-13 people in the room, showing that we can get duelers in the dueling rooms if someone is willing to schedule events for the duelers to attend.

[Hope]

I think most people are hesitant to see who takes over DoS before trying to organize events without their approval and a basic grasp of their itinerary.

[PC]

Is there still interest in this? I saw talk of team-base events that are related to more strategy brought up in the lobby, so I wanted to get a read on things.

If you guys want a team event I can put one together easy.. I just need at least 4 teams, I can possibly work with 3 (by making it round robin), but it will mostly work like the thread Gren linked to ( viewtopic.php?t=24805 ). Except 5 members will be decreased to 3 minimum with 5 maximum, and the weekly matches will be best 2 out of 3. Should a tie happen it'll go to points gained / points lost as a tie breaker.

Currently we're in week 5 of the cycle. An event like this, being single elimination, will take around 3 or so weeks.. Which means I can actually start this up around week 9 and run it to 12/13.

I just want to know if there's interest, and if so, if there are people willing to captain and secure a team. Future strategy-based team events can also be looked at for DoS should things work out. I don't want to make a promise 100%, but it'd still be something to consider in the future.

I understand that this could be seen as somewhat short notice, but like I said, I don't mind throwing things together within a few weeks and making it work if it's something you might enjoy. Summer-cycle might be a no-go, and if this truly is short notice we can possibly plan something for fall cycle (with the possibility of making it double elimination). All and all, this is just touching base with you guys and seeing if there's interest.