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Gren Blockman
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Suggestion

Post by Gren Blockman »

Due to the success of IFL 2017, I would like to make a suggestion. I know that TDL will probably never come back, but G came up with something similar back in 2011. It was the Team Dueling Tournament. 8 teams of 5 players compete in a three week, winner take all tournament. It’s quick, fun, will bridge the gap between the end of IFL and the start of Madness. Considering we’ve been getting at least 15-20 people in the room during IFL duels, maybe something like this would help take advantage of the increased participation we’ve been seeing.

Here is the thread regarding TDT:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=24805
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Post by Rakeesh »

I definitely believe that Team and Event-centric dueling is more sustainable in the modern era of the internet and the community here. I'm not active right now because -- life -- but I like this idea. I'd do it when able.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Rakeesh wrote:I definitely believe that Team and Event-centric dueling is more sustainable in the modern era of the internet and the community here.
I agree 100%. Team centered events just bring people out in a way that regulation doesn't. I think even in a way that an event like Madness, for as fun as it can be, doesn't.
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Post by Anubis Karos »

Got my vote.
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Post by Nigel Alder »

The narrative in 2016 was a lot different from what I'm reading here. In 2016 when it came time for IFL the community was told that it was negative and it was being cancelled. That team based events detracted from regulation and therefore team based events were going to be limited, starting with IFL being cancelled. This was one of the major sticking points in that entire thread even regardless of numeric proof. Now its a year later and the narrative is switching to, there should be more team based events, and no break between.

There wasn't any discussion or opportunity for those of us, myself included, who had the opposite experience with IFL 2015 to say they had enjoyed themselves immensely and it made them want to participate in more team based events as the year went on and maybe finally make the jump into being more active around these parts. The message was IFL 2016 wasn't happening because the overwhelming response to IFL 2015 was it was a negative experience.

Believing this to be the truth I pulled myself out of participating in IFL 2017 and dialed back my participation here. If my IFL 2015 experience was a negative despite my positive experience then maybe I was wrong. Maybe I was enjoying something no one else did. So why would I want to participate in an event that no one else enjoyed?

I want to make a strong suggestion. This site really needs to be self-aware of how it markets itself. Not only to new players who cross-over from the RDI like I did, but to its own player base. When you're told something is bad and negative you have no other choice to believe it.

This place needs about a dozen more Harrises. Members who are willing to open up frank discussions that positively contribute to an over-arching dialogue which is invested in seeing things improve. Instead of what happened with IFL 2016, where the general uninformed, not involved in the behind the scenes, and maybe fresh eyed public were told that an event people had invested dozens to hundreds of hours participating in was a negative. It not only gives the community a terrible reputation but is piss poor marketing to get people to join and participate. If we're spending hours dueling, cheering, having our characters interact. If the event organizers and supporters are typing up amazingly creative, funny, and entertaining articles. All that creativity and time invested only to make it seem like the majority of people didn't enjoy that event and all those hours essentially wasted. Why would anyone bother if that's the case?

I'm not asking to be deceived or lied to. I am asking that in the future people are really careful about sending a message that dissuades people from participating around here, and that's what the cancelling of IFL 2016 did. All those hours invested and at the end of it the community didn't enjoy itself. So why bother?
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Post by Eden Parker »

I'm sorry that you took our discussion of 2015 IFL, where some people confessed to being burned out after it, as being an indictment of the whole event that somehow meant you shouldn't have enjoyed it as much as you did. I thought that discussion was actually open and honest, even if it was contentious and might not have had the particular result that you wanted with IFL being placed on hiatus for a year.

Changes to the site are always experiments. I can't know whether an event I try to run is going to be net-positive for the site or net-negative. At the time, a decision was made by the person who ran the event that IFL needed a year off, and some people agreed that that would be helpful and some people agreed it wouldn't. Ultimately, it was one person's decision, and, as I said, it was an experiment.

After the quiet year we've had, I think it's more likely than not that IFL, and team dueling, are more positive for the site than negative. I think there are a lot of reasons why regulation has been so slow, not just relating to IFL. But I don't doubt that disappointed and negative feelings that resulted from our discussion about IFL is one of them. And yet, we can't seem to have the "frank" discussions you're talking about without there being a sense of negative feelings in them. I don't know why that is. Will we always come away feeling negatively when we don't agree with the ultimate decision that's been made? Or maybe it's the way that people communicate with each other in text that makes people seem like they're being mean to each other? Or maybe they just, flat out, are being mean to each other. I don't have an answer for this. I've been on RDI for ten years and RoH for about four, and I don't know how to fix that problem.

I think this community has had multiple, difficult conversations about how it's being marketed, and what it is, and where its future is. This has been a source of frustration for me too. I'm sorry you were turned off. I know a lot of people are. I think it's okay for us to try things and be wrong. I think we are having the discussions you want. I just don't think they're pleasant or easy. And inevitably, someone will be disappointed or offended. I'm sorry that a couple years ago that person was you.
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Post by Andrea Anderson »

tbh if we look at the dueling numbers from last year to this year, we actually had more dueling in 2016 compared to 2017.. IFL has brought about only a small increase, with one or two duelists participating in regulation who are not even part of IFL. Majority of the current IFl teams don't even have the full 7 players. Room numbers aren't as big as compared to the IFL years prior, and it feels mostly that players are simply going through the motions while those who were vocal during the 2016 discussion seemed to back off returning this year, and in Nigels case, because of how IFL was perceived by a vocal minority. I'll agree 100% tho that there's marketing problems with this site, and i'll also agree that in the end everyone isn't going to be happy.

While some might have been burnt out from IFL and their complaints were justified, the numbers simply didn't back up the claims. We don't know if IFL in 2016 would have boosted much, it may have been like what we see here now, though with half as more regulation. All we'd have is the assumption that the burnt out players would have not joined, those who did enjoy IFL would come back, and the idea that we might have been scrounging for teams once more - as we did this year.

Would I say IFL 2017 was a success? If it's a success for you as a player, if you found something fun in it, if you didn't go through the motions as if it were a job or because you made a promise a year or so ago to be on a team and didn't want to break it - then IFL 2017 was a success. Like most leagues though, the sooner the majority of teams are gone we will most likely see a drop in participation in the chat. Was it a success numbers wise? A bit. But we also have seen regulation boosts, even if 4 duels worth, come out of recent events / ongoing events. While IFL may bring out spectators, it's not doing much in regulation - but that was seen in the data I posted in the 2016 thread. You'd usually see a jump in participation after IFL after a small drop during. Will it happen here? Who knows. Regulation dueling has been in a downward spiral and it might be time to have a discussion about that as a whole. Players have grown out of it, they dislike others who are around in the community, suffer burnout, or whatever else. If you look at it outside of tunnel vision.. this isn't a new thing? It's been like this before, current, and most likely after - and not just in this community, but all gaming communities. The difference though as that these other games have something to draw in players. Sure, I can't go one day without seein the n-word or other crap posted up in World of Warcraft trade, but there's other things to do to push EPIC MEMERS and bullshit to the side. All we have here, currently, is the same formula that's been pushed for how many years? We have players who'd rather it stay the same, for their accomplishments not to become easier, and for newer players to have the walk the same path, or we have older players who return and see just how much things and attitudes that change that may have turned them off. Then we have newer players, and I use this term loosely not to say there aren't many new - but new can simply mean players who've never invested energy in the ranking game or tried for titles, who are gated off and either have to fight those of high ranks who may or may not offer to fight them on their level, or - as it is now - a stagnant pool that offers no real competition. IMO, there needs to be some sort of re-branding from regulation. A new shift in rules, a new shift in the ideas that things can still be competitive even if it became easier for others to access the same content. It's just about finding the right mesh of casual and competitive.

I used to be very much anti-casual and for keeping things the same. But, you know what, I see that it's failing. That's why businesses always evolve and change, for better or worse. RoH is hemorrhaging enough and it might be time to just try new ideas. Or else we wait for Prochat and see how our already dwindling playerbase and duel callers react: and I'm thinking it won't be well. So we need something to keep players attention drawn.

But back to IFL / Leagues. Like anything. It is what you, personally, make of it. I said during the last discussion that if players dislike IFL or felt burnt out, then they should just not join and let those who had fun have their fun. At the end of the day it was Kalamere's choice to pull the trigger or not.

And onto Gren's post.

The idea would be nice tbh and it'd bring some boost to regulation ( hopefully ), my only concern is that we've seen a DOF-based event, then we'll be seeing this being a DoS one, which then melds into another DoS event that is Madness. DoM gets no real love :(. THEN AGAIN.. DOM.. NEVER GETS LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Apple wrote: IMO, there needs to be some sort of re-branding from regulation. A new shift in rules, a new shift in the ideas that things can still be competitive even if it became easier for others to access the same content. It's just about finding the right mesh of casual and competitive.

I used to be very much anti-casual and for keeping things the same. But, you know what, I see that it's failing. That's why businesses always evolve and change, for better or worse. RoH is hemorrhaging enough and it might be time to just try new ideas. Or else we wait for Prochat and see how our already dwindling playerbase and duel callers react: and I'm thinking it won't be well. So we need something to keep players attention drawn.
This is likely what we've needed for a long time now, but that's neither here nor there because we didn't do it soooo. At this point? I honestly think it's more likely that the duels will die and be resurrected in some way down the line, which might provide a fresh start, a chance for revision of rules/format/regulation all in one.

Though for the sake of not being entirely pessimistic, we can discuss stuff like that now; I just don't know if we have the support that we would need to make something like that happen. We need active admin support, someone(s) to spearhead the effort, and community buy-in and cooperation in addition to a way to draw in new players.

One thing I think that could help (though it could also be too late for this) is a serious decrease in the number of nights dueling is offered. Like down to one or two. This was touched upon when we added more fight nights.

My suggestion then was to revitalize the settings as well. If we're having all fight nights? I'd suggest that again. There could be some kind of community SL to go with it to explain why the fights are being held in a new location. Kind of like the one that went with the reduction in DoS rings back in the day? When's the last time we had anything like that?

A reduction in nights for dueling would be problematic for some, but it would mean we are not spread so thin with both callers and fighters. There is also the chance that once that single night is busy? We slowly add in more nights again but only when there is a demand for it.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Gren.
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Post by Andrea Anderson »

Easiest way to do a fight night every day while keeping the integraty of locations would be to host said fight nights at these locations and void out the Annex ( or at least use it for one or two days ). Using IFL as an example, fights were held alongside regulation rooms so these rooms saw numbers and play. You'd have the scenery there and the lore to go along with it, along with the ability to fight in all sports. This could go one step ahead by allowing incentives of fighting the main sport of the night. DoS? Maybe an extra fancy to be used. Already at max potential in fancies? Perhaps a loss forgiveness, something to get old players and high ranks the chance to come out for while also giving lower ranks a perk to play with and the ability to see that more than just challenging perks come in the future.

There's a lot of quality of life changes that can be made little by little. I don't think a full rule-change right off the bat is a good idea since a lot of feathers would be ruffled. But small changes, bit by bit, to help ease some sort of transition. Even if it's just having a discussion thread and throwing out random ideas like..

1: No more ranks. Everyone is a Warlord now!
2: You need a set number of wins to challenge for titles! Peer wins are brought back! Peer wins roll over cycles!
3: Drop from 7 to 4 titles! Overlord stays the same!
4: WLT wins count toward peer wins! Treat it like the Archmage Tournament where the winner gets a shot at the Overlord!
5: Talon Tournament is simply there for free WoL night! The Talon itself offers the winner a free shot at a barony! Or keep the Talon of Redwin and allow the one who wins it to be able to fight as a baron without the title!
6: Barons Council! if you're a baron and want a shot for the overlord? Get 2/3 support from your buddies and go for it!

etc, etc. That would be a drastic change I don't think many old players would like, or they might, I don't know. But trying to piece together some sort of plan would be nice. Even if it's seeing more leagues pop up, but I'd like them to at least be part of regulation to help. Anywho.. It's either try something new or keep it as is - and then the question comes to the current community, which would you want?
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Post by Andrea Anderson »

Anywho. I'm probably just saying stuff that's been on peoples minds for a while so it's not really anything new. But if this league does come back I might not join, just because we already have a lack of callers as is, and I'm not sure how calling regulation for your own teammage would work out. By not joining I could at least help out on Thursdays since there's no callers then.
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Post by Gren Blockman »

Jewell, I don’t feel you hijacked the thread at all. While we’ve got increased participation because of IFL, these kind of ideas need to be addressed.

Apple, Yes, TDT & Madness are both DoS, but that doesn’t mean that DoM can’t hold something similar if DoS doesn’t want to pick up this particular ball and run with it. Ragnarok? A Team Dueling Tournament just like DoS TDT? Why not? Hint, hint.

The whole idea was to strike while the proverbial iron was hot, and get people discussing these things and getting involved, while we’ve got the players back for IFL.
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Post by Andrea Anderson »

I actually wouldn't mind running something like a magic TDT, but my main issue is that the month of feb->march is uncertain for me, so I'd be biting off more than I can chew, sadly. Though I'll keep it in my mind once things get settled and there's another gap in time between events.

And while running it for magic would be nice, I'd be worried more about actually having bodies to fill the ranks. But that can be said for any sports right now I guess.
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Post by DUEL Sylus »

Quite a few responses to get through. I've read them all but I'm not going to quote and write a novella.

The void left in the wake of TDL and IFL shortly after it led to the creation of Hydra, as most all ready know. Each sport over the years has gone through different changes as necessary. Evolve or die, right?

If the community feels a transition into more team-based events and less daily grind-dueling would be a welcome direction I'm for the experiment. But as was pointed out, things like these require someone stepping up to the plate and spearheading those changes. They don't even have to be permanent from the onset. I'm fairly certain that the TDT was an experiment in itself as was the Tag-Team swords event.

Who is willing to lift themselves up and work with the current leadership and work out a viable hypothesis program?
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Post by Harris »

The problem this community has is that it's fickle and lacks foresight. It's entirely reactionary rather than preventative.

Rather than recognizing the downward spiral regulation was in this year (I ran numbers for myself for the first six months of 2016 vs 2017 in July) only now in December are people realizing their error in regard to events and their obvious community benefit. To put this in perspective 2016 generated 1051 duels the entire year. Thus far 2017 has generated 481 through November, give or take. We're looking at a probable 50% decrease in a mere 12 month time span. Obviously this isn't something RoH can sustain year to year.

The entire point of the 2016 Post-Mortem thread was to open up a dialogue and plan ahead to *avoid* such a catastrophic drop off in participation. Like I previously said, 2015 was a blissful anomaly and it wouldn't be long before people were clamoring for those days of being drowned in events to come back.

In addition, burning bridges with Coordinators factors into this lack of community foresight. Is Sylus expected to spearhead this event? The last time I checked the community openly boycotted Madness this year and tore him to pieces over Hydra in 2016 for all to see. But now he's expected to turn the other cheek. Kalamere is already the hardest working man in this community, running IFL, having spent most of the year as DoF SK as well as DoS Assistant Coord, as well as running a division for Madness. Let's not forget RhyDin Clue he never had a chance to run (I assumed he was waiting for the chat dust to settle and it still hasn't yet). In May he revisited the topic of combining DoF and DoM nights due to how slow things were and was entirely rebuffed. Should we ask him to carry yet another event on his back?

Like Sylus said, somebody needs to step up and actually volunteer to plan and run this, otherwise it's just all talk. This community needs to take a step back and start planning ahead rather than constantly playing catch up thanks to poor decision making.
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Post by Kalamere »

Nigel, your summation is disingenuous. Nobody, at any point, said that team or league events were bad. IFL skipped a year because it was my opinion that we had overdone it. That I said, in the very first post, IFL would be back in a year's time should have made it clear the league was not considered an overall negative. We discussed a need for perhaps better pacing or coordination. Let's also be clear that this was never an issue of how the site markets itself. IFL's one year hiatus was a decision made by exactly one person. You can hold it against me all you like, but there's no justification for painting the whole site with that brush. It's not constructive. If you like the idea of team events overall and think it should be a thing, then support it. If you don't like how the IFL break went down, then just go ahead and say 'Don't let Kal get involved, cause he stole my lunch money.' I am not the start and end of all site things.

Plenty of other people have done some really fun events and made large contributions to what goes on here. Help them instead of complaining about me or, at the very least, stop lumping both into the same bucket. I don't mind being bitched about - I knew some wouldn't like the call and expected it. Split it off into some separate Kal hate thread though rather than contaminating a suggestion / idea from Gren that might actually be something you'd have fun with.

Anyway...

This past year went the opposite way from the overload that had me take a year off with IFL. We had no IFL, a very small DoS Madness, no Ragnarok, no Hydra, no DoG. Having events is as important as trying to make sure you don't have too many. It's like cooking. You'll screw up your recipe if you throw in a whole cup of salt, but it's just as bad if you don't use any at all.

Doing a TDT or something else, I think would be a great idea. I would caution on the time frame though. Trying to wedge something in there between IFL (ends 1/25) and Madness (typically starts the beginning of March) doesn't give a lot of time. Maybe 6 weeks? And all smack in between 2 other events with zero time off.

I think you'd be better served to chalk it up for post Madness. Or even mid-madness, considering half the people in that event get knocked out after the first week. An early April start I think would work reasonably well. Or hold off till May.

Find people willing to write about it.

That's really the biggest thing in my opinion. Anyone can run the league. You don't need a website with a complicated DB backend and auto calculations. When Ian started TDL back in the 90's he didn't have any of that. He did it all by hand in excel until Jake and I got involved. Having a script driven site makes it easier to run, but honestly you can get by with some google doc spreadsheets if need be. In my experience the thing that really drives interest is the writer contributions. I think we all have that little narcissistic streak that loves seeing our character's names in writing. Don't be offended by that please, I am as guilty, if not more so, as anyone.

When I came back from a long break and started playing again in 2010, the hook that really kept me here was the Gossip Gangstar. I loved loved loved Marc Franco as well as the articles from the RhyDin Post.

That is probably the biggest thing we lack these days, so when IFL gets running and we have the likes of Tony Depatie and Jack Smith, as well as others, start up, it's a big deal. I'd love to see more news and gossip writings during non-league times - I think it would go a ways towards maintaining interest. It's also a massive under taking though and I don't know that anyone could ever match what Marc's player put into it. Not that they would need to. Even a weekly / monthly / quarterly kinda thing would be a step up from what we have today.

Just my two cents. The key to a successful event, and a good hook in non-event times, is to make sure it is being written about.

~Kal
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