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PrlUnicorn
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Post by PrlUnicorn »

G wrote:
PrlUnicorn wrote:
The Archmage is also the Keeper of the Celestial Tower. Only those of Mage or Mage Emeritus Rank can enter the cyclic tournament to gain a shot at the title. Unless there's a change in that, an Archmage's neophyte would be always eligible for the Sorcerer's Apprentice achievement.
Archmage is a title on it's own and not considered a Keeper title, thus would not apply to the Sorcerer's Apprentice achievement. There are only 4 Keeper titles.
Current Standings:
Keepers of the Isle
Celestial Keeper / ArchMage Claire Farron Gained: 2013-10-18
Keeper of Air Vacant
Keeper of Earth Colleen MacLeod-Fenner Gained: 2013-09-28
Keeper of Fire Kheldar Drasinia Gained: 2013-07-22 Defended: 2013-08-27 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Water XanthVanBokkelen Gained: 2013-10-18
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Post by G »

PrlUnicorn wrote:
G wrote:
PrlUni corn wrote:
The Archmage is also the Keeper of the Celestial Tower. Only those of Mage or Mage Emeritus Rank can enter the cyclic tournament to gain a shot at the title. Unless there's a change in that, an Archmage's neophyte would be always eligible for the Sorcerer's Apprentice achievement.
Archmage is a title on it's own and not considered a Keeper title, thus would not apply to the Sorcerer's Apprentice achievement. There are only 4 Keeper titles.
Current Standings:
Keepers of the Isle
Celestial Keeper / ArchMage Claire Farron Gained: 2013-10-18
Keeper of Air Vacant
Keeper of Earth Colleen MacLeod-Fenner Gained: 2013-09-28
Keeper of Fire Kheldar Drasinia Gained: 2013-07-22 Defended: 2013-08-27 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Water XanthVanBokkelen Gained: 2013-10-18
Which was pretty much what Lem already posted.

The discussion now should be if that should be included as part of the Achievement. Because if so, then Diamonds and Overlords should be able to give that achievement, yet Overlords can't have Squires.

My argument is that Archmage Neophytes should not be eligible for the achievement, despite the fact that they're also a "Keeper."

Frankly, I'm leaning to Archmage Keeper's Neophytes are not eligible and the wording will need to change on the achievement page.

If you want to continue to argue for an Archmage keeper counting, feel free, it won't convince me because Overlords and Diamond's underlings aren't eligible for their respective achievements.
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Post by G »

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Post by Jake »

G wrote:If you want to continue to argue for an Archmage keeper counting, feel free, it won't convince me because Overlords and Diamond's underlings aren't eligible for their respective achievements.
There are some differences between the sports.

DoS Barons can have a Squire. The Overlord cannot. Squires also get an RP-item to play with.

DoF Emeralds and Opals can have a Mentee. The Diamond can have two. Only the Opals have an achievement for it. To balance out the fact that there can be so many more mentor/mentee relationships, the Mentor must be present for the Mentee to get the extra mod.

It was my understanding from previous conversations that the Archmage is considered a Keeper. (I had inquired about this some time ago I think.)

I think there are enough differences between DoF/DoS/DoM and how they've implemented the mentor/squire/apprentice programs to survive DoM granting the achievement to neophytes of the Celestial Keeper.
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Post by PrlUnicorn »

G wrote:
PrlUnicorn wrote:
G wrote: Archmage is a title on it's own and not considered a Keeper title, thus would not apply to the Sorcerer's Apprentice achievement. There are only 4 Keeper titles.
Current Standings:
Keepers of the Isle
Celestial Keeper / ArchMage Claire Farron Gained: 2013-10-18
Keeper of Air Vacant
Keeper of Earth Colleen MacLeod-Fenner Gained: 2013-09-28
Keeper of Fire Kheldar Drasinia Gained: 2013-07-22 Defended: 2013-08-27 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Water XanthVanBokkelen Gained: 2013-10-18
Which was pretty much what Lem already posted.

The discussion now should be if that should be included as part of the Achievement. Because if so, then Diamonds and Overlords should be able to give that achievement, yet Overlords can't have Squires.

My argument is that Archmage Neophytes should not be eligible for the achievement, despite the fact that they're also a "Keeper."

Frankly, I'm leaning to Archmage Keeper's Neophytes are not eligible and the wording will need to change on the achievement page.

If you want to continue to argue for an Archmage keeper counting, feel free, it won't convince me because Overlords and Diamond's underlings aren't eligible for their respective achievements.
I understand that it was pretty much what Lem had already posted, the point being that a look at the standings page shows the information right out in the store window. The AM has also been listed as a Keeper since the first standings were published on this site http://www.ringsofhonor.org/dom/DoMstan ... e=20050104 It's not right to arbitrarily change that after at least 8 years of a standing precedent.

How many years has the debate of Sword =/= Fists =/= Magic gone on? This is one of those situations where Magic's rules, rank and title system totally differ from DoS and DoF. As Jake pointed out, there are differences between sports.

G, you previously verified the Archmage as valid as a Keeper for the achievement.
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 945#153945
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Post by G »

PrlUnicorn wrote:
G wrote:
PrlUni corn wrote: Current Standings:
Keepers of the Isle
Celestial Keeper / ArchMage Claire Farron Gained: 2013-10-18
Keeper of Air Vacant
Keeper of Earth Colleen MacLeod-Fenner Gained: 2013-09-28
Keeper of Fire Kheldar Drasinia Gained: 2013-07-22 Defended: 2013-08-27 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Water XanthVanBokkelen Gained: 2013-10-18
Which was pretty much what Lem already posted.

The discussion now should be if that should be included as part of the Achievement. Because if so, then Diamonds and Overlords should be able to give that achievement, yet Overlords can't have Squires.

My argument is that Archmage Neophytes should not be eligible for the achievement, despite the fact that they're also a "Keeper."

Frankly, I'm leaning to Archmage Keeper's Neophytes are not eligible and the wording will need to change on the achievement page.

If you want to continue to argue for an Archmage keeper counting, feel free, it won't convince me because Overlords and Diamond's underlings aren't eligible for their respective achievements.
I understand that it was pretty much what Lem had already posted, the point being that a look at the standings page shows the information right out in the store window. The AM has also been listed as a Keeper since the first standings were published on this site http://www.ringsofhonor.org/dom/DoMstan ... e=20050104 It's not right to arbitrarily change that after at least 8 years of a standing precedent.

How many years has the debate of Sword =/= Fists =/= Magic gone on? This is one of those situations where Magic's rules, rank and title system totally differ from DoS and DoF. As Jake pointed out, there are differences between sports.

G, you previously verified the Archmage as valid as a Keeper for the achievement.
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 945#153945
I also said
In other words, anyone who has requested that achievement and it was to just to Emeralds and Mages were incorrectly awarded.

Now the question is, do I go through all those requests and revoke, or just let it sit as is and be more vigilant in the future.

I think, honestly, that I'm going to keep it as is, and be more careful on checking the verification.
If you want me to revoke the improperly awarded achievement, I will. Otherwise acknowledge that in the future, I'm going to be more vigilant at verification to ensure that only the elemental keepers neophytes are awarded the achievement as it was intended.

Point is, the wording was incorrect. The achievement was incorrectly awarded.

The wording is now in line with how the achievement was intended and in the future, I'm going to award it to the correct requesters. I am also not going to revoke it from those who have previously been rewarded as it was MY error in doing so.

That said, just because I awarded it in the past does NOT mean it's going to be done in the future. The issue is corrected and Going Forth, only CORRECT requests will be honored.
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Post by Napoleon Bonarat »

Please don't revoke. Achievements are meant to be fun.
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Post by G »

Napoleon Bonarat wrote:Please don't revoke. Achievements are meant to be fun.
I certainly don't want to.
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Post by PrlUnicorn »

G wrote:
Point is, the wording was incorrect. The achievement was incorrectly awarded.

The wording is now in line with how the achievement was intended and in the future, I'm going to award it to the correct requesters. I am also not going to revoke it from those who have previously been rewarded as it was MY error in doing so.
I'm going make an addendum to my own entry for that achievement in case someone decides to change that in future.
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Post by Lem DeAngelo »

Should we have an achievement specifically for the celestial keeper's neophyte and the Diamond's mentee?
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Post by G »

Lem DeAngelo wrote:Should we have an achievement specifically for the celestial keeper's neophyte and the Diamond's mentee?
Only if someone can come up with something of equal value for the Overlord in DoS. It's supposed to be an equal ranking deal across all three sports for those achievements.
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Post by Lem DeAngelo »

G wrote:
Lem DeAngelo wrote:Should we have an achievement specifically for the celestial keeper's neophyte and the Diamond's mentee?
Only if someone can come up with something of equal value for the Overlord in DoS. It's supposed to be an equal ranking deal across all three sports for those achievements.
I'm confused as to which achievements require uniformity? I assumed if the achievement states Duel of Fists, then it is for the duel of fists and must be in accordance with the DoF rules.

The keymaster achievement requires the recipient have held the Celestial Key and the 4 elemental keys. The heir of stormfist and gatekeeper achievements do not require the recipient to have held the diamond or overlord belt.

The apt pupil achievement is DoS only and could easily apply to DoM's neophytes since enchanters have been Keepers, but we never amended the dof rules to require mentees to be allowed an achievement similar to Apt Pupil.

I'm not really concerned with the Sorcerer's apprentice achievement not being allowed for the Celestial Keeper's neophyte because the achievements should be simple fun without arguments. But I don't understand the requirement that some things should be exactly the same when the sports themselves have never been the same.
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Post by PrlUnicorn »

Lem DeAngelo wrote: The apt pupil achievement is DoS only and could easily apply to DoM's neophytes since enchanters have been Keepers, but we never amended the dof rules to require mentees to be allowed an achievement similar to Apt Pupil.

I'm not really concerned with the Sorcerer's apprentice achievement not being allowed for the Celestial Keeper's neophyte because the achievements should be simple fun without arguments. But I don't understand the requirement that some things should be exactly the same when the sports themselves have never been the same.

http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 477#141477
Since the Squire is allowed to gain Apt Pupil via any sport, perhaps, it could be adapted to be Squire, Mentee, or Neophyte?
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Post by G »

PrlUnicorn wrote:
Lem DeAngelo wrote: The apt pupil achievement is DoS only and could easily apply to DoM's neophytes since enchanters have been Keepers, but we never amended the dof rules to require mentees to be allowed an achievement similar to Apt Pupil.

I'm not really concerned with the Sorcerer's apprentice achievement not being allowed for the Celestial Keeper's neophyte because the achievements should be simple fun without arguments. But I don't understand the requirement that some things should be exactly the same when the sports themselves have never been the same.

http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 477#141477
Since the Squire is allowed to gain Apt Pupil via any sport, perhaps, it could be adapted to be Squire, Mentee, or Neophyte?
Yes, it should, I agree with this statement.
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Post by Goldglo »

I could be wrong, but I believe "Apt Pupil" originated when GM squires were allowed to challenge and was intended specifically to acknowledge that scenario.

As it stands now, it's very difficult for a squire to win a Baron's title but it is possible. Also, the Apt Pupil achievement is listed as DoS specific. In my interpretation, if a DoS squire were to win say, a Keepership, I don't think they've earned the Apt Pupil achievement.

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